Curse

Ctb · Apr 15, 2008, 06:59 PM // 18:59

Quote:

But it also shows that they are banning before looking at the surrounding chat logs that (presumably) would have shown them that the transaction was an innocent one.

How are they going to comb through thousands of lines of saved text to try and find a conversation that may or may not be there and may or may not relate to the sketchy trade?

It's unreasonable to expect this to be a manual process. It would take a lot of time and that costs money and that means customers pay more. Alternatively, they can do what they do: automatically identify shady dealings and ban them, then unban people who identify the dealings as legitimate.

The major point is that what the OP is describing is very unlikely to be something most people who aren't breaking TOS do, so it's very unlikely to affect many people who aren't breaking TOS. They engaged in an oddball trade that was clearly sketchy, got banned, and now they'll be unbanned when they provide an explanation for the motivation and backstory to the trade.

No biggie. It's standard fare even in the real world. If you're doing something that looks criminal, you can be picked up and held for a set period of time until they either identify what you were doing as criminal and charge you, or figure out you were just doing something that [i]looked]/i] funny.

KIDGOOCH · Apr 15, 2008, 07:15 PM // 19:15

They can find one guy who trades to a guildie, but can't find the whisper bots? A-Net needs to prioritize!!!

Div · Apr 15, 2008, 07:26 PM // 19:26

Yeah, Ensign got banned before a mAT once for gold trading between accounts. Epic.

...So did lemming, but no one cares about him

Kendar Muert · Apr 15, 2008, 07:29 PM // 19:29

If they'd just ban the bots and nothing else, the problem would be solved. Its not like its hard to find them...

t00115577 · Apr 15, 2008, 07:32 PM // 19:32

Does that mean if a friend says 'Can i borrow 100k to buy xxxx' that ye can both be banned?

Totally bloddy crazy, theres so many other things they can be sorting out, like bots, leechers, URSAN!! and they ban people for nothing, gg anet

*lemming* · Apr 15, 2008, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by holymasamune

Yeah, Ensign got banned before a mAT once for gold trading between accounts. Epic.

...So did lemming, but no one cares about him

You make me cry, divine.

Kendar Muert · Apr 15, 2008, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Poor lemming :P

freaky naughty · Apr 15, 2008, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Will people ever learn to never use one-sided trades? Just trade a piece of crap for that gold and you'll probably be fine.

Ctb · Apr 15, 2008, 07:55 PM // 19:55

Quote:

If they'd just ban the bots and nothing else, the problem would be solved. Its not like its hard to find them...

Put your money where your mouth is then, smart guy. Post a logical ruleset that would properly automatically identify ONLY bots.

Bear in mind this logic tree would have to actually run on modern computer hardware without consuming all of the resources.

No offense or anything, but as a computer professional, it really irritates me when people say things about computer science that so clearly betray how little experience they actually have solving those sorts of fundamental field problems. It's only easy to identify bots when you're looking at them because of the way your brain works. It picks up on contextual and behavioral clues. Computers know two things: 1 and 0. All "thought" they do must be built from true and false evaluations. To get a computer to "understand" bots the way you do, you'd first need to advance AI programming by a few years, if not decades.

So, no, picking out bots, for a computer program, is not at all easy.

And, of course, if you were being sarcastic, my bad...

Whisper Evenstar · Apr 15, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehnahvah Gahro

Yes, but imagine you were the innocent victim. You would not be talking like that anymore, would you? Especially if it takes 1 week or so to resolve the problem (if it will be resolved at all).

I think the system has to be tuned a little bit more, so that bots and gold-sellers will be banned, but innocent players are unharmed.

Um, yes I would be talking like this if it was me and they fixed the problem.... which was my point... I have reasonable expectations.

Also, see the post above for more supporting arguments from someone else who understands the scope of the problem.

Dallcingi · Apr 15, 2008, 09:21 PM // 21:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by freaky naughty

Will people ever learn to never use one-sided trades? Just trade a piece of crap for that gold and you'll probably be fine.

I think it works but someone in the earlier thread said a bone did not work...

Chthon · Apr 15, 2008, 09:26 PM // 21:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

the system is automated, can't you see that?

Yes, I can see that. That does not mean I approve of it.

Quote:

Its actually a more efficient system than combing through every possible ban, since thats a waste of time. The ones who fight to be unbanned will get the attention, and the ones who don't stay banned.

More efficient, but less fair. What about the people who take a-net's "no appeals" policy seriously and don't keep pestering support until the ban is lifted? They still lose their account without having done anything wrong. Inefficient or not, you shouldn't be banning anyone without a review by a human being. The only way I might maybe be OK with automated bans would be if there was an official and effective appeal system and you were referred to it in your ban message. But the appeal system a-net has now does not officially exist (officially there are no appeals) and it can take dozens of tickets to get support to just look at the damn log and see that the ban was a mistake.

**cosyfiep** · Apr 15, 2008, 10:12 PM // 22:12

you forget that a lot of people dont know they can appeal (the automated thingy usually says NO APPEALS....so most take it to the letter and just give up even IF they are not guilty)......many of the people dont know how to appeal and lots of the ones that do are

about getting banned for doing something like moving plat between their accounts!! they usually arent very eloquent when replying either...
(I always give something to my husband when he give me items that he doesnt want---and vise versa when I give him dye--he has the storage space for it).

Kashrlyyk · Apr 15, 2008, 10:19 PM // 22:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

the system is automated, can't you see that?

That means ANet is NOT paying attention, because for that you need humans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

If you recall the duping bans, there were those who reported it also got banned, simply because the system does a blanket ban, and they were later unbanned.

Still think they are paying attention?

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Its actually a more efficient system than combing through every possible ban, since thats a waste of time. The ones who fight to be unbanned will get the attention, and the ones who don't stay banned.

Sadly, nobody tells new players that they can appeal. So the system is actually pretty disgusting, in fact the whole appeal/ban process is disgusting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ctb

....Alternatively, they can do what they do: automatically identify shady dealings and ban them, then unban people who identify the dealings as legitimate.
.....

NO! NO! NO! Automatically identify shady dealings, so that a human can look at the logs and then decide!!! Everything else is a disgracefull, lazy system.

Malice Black · Apr 15, 2008, 10:59 PM // 22:59

I swapped 7 stacks ecto between accounts before. Never been banned once. This was a while ago though.

MoriaOrc · Apr 15, 2008, 11:32 PM // 23:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rehnahvah Gahro

Yes, but imagine you were the innocent victim. You would not be talking like that anymore, would you? Especially if it takes 1 week or so to resolve the problem (if it will be resolved at all).

I also wouldn't head straight to Guru to post a complaint thread...

Also, what Ctb said about automated systems. The best way to do this (assuming it isn't too common) would be to have an automated system highlight suspicious cases, then have a human do some checks that are very hard to automate (like looking at chat logs, or looking for other trades that may indicate some sort of transfer).

Lykan · Apr 16, 2008, 05:05 AM // 05:05

I need to trade some money from selling zkeys from one account to another but now im scared

Carinae · Apr 16, 2008, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

I swapped 7 stacks ecto between accounts before. Never been banned once. This was a while ago though.

Swap them to me. I'll hold them for ya. I'll even let you hold, say 10k gold, so they don't flag it.

Patrick Smit · Apr 16, 2008, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I traded like 100k gold from one account to my second account, i have experienced no problem whatsoever

Viking · Apr 16, 2008, 06:47 AM // 06:47

Reading through this I'd say this rule is complete bullshit.